[urlhttp://www.london-gazette.co.uk/issues/59540/notices/1201704/recent=10;category=corp-insolvency-winding-up-court;subcategory=petitions-companies[/url



This is in absolutely no way a p155 taking thread as I'm sure we'll all agree financial problems getting in the way of your club progressing considering the real hard work that goes into running a Rugby league club and the work of volunteers can be heart breaking at best.



The thing also is that this isn't actually - in real terms - that bad now that HMRC have lost their approved creditor status they are really quick to serve winding up notices at the first opportunity. They'll probably just have a meeting about a new payment plan and that'll be the end of it.



It does ask the question though about the club's cash reserves during the off season when gate receipts are nil and thus cash flow is minimal. This is bound to have a detrimental effect on player signatures and retentions for next season which is really cutting your nose off to spite your face from creditors as if the club can't sign and retain the best possible players they take less cash in and inevitably find it harder to pay back what is owed.



This also puts the spotlight on another issue for me. That is this obsession of the RFl that everyone moves into brand new state of the art stadia. Wakefield's directors (like every other club that hasn't already got or is lodging in a football team's state of the art ground) must be lumping everything into the new stadium that they hope to build.



This obsession is in my opinion both shortsighted and self defeating. The RFL need the best possible product on the pitch to gain the revenue from sponsors and media outlets. That must be their priority. Secondary is the spectator facilities. In an ideal world the current view expressed by RFL would be correct however having just passed out of - and the strong possiblity of re- entering - a period of recession they should do the right thing and scrap that criterion from the Super league license application process.



TBH I think a lot of people in RFL probably agree with that but they seem so slow to react that they are probably plugging away with a process decided upon years ago.

The Wakefield club [url=http://wakefieldwildcats.co.uk/2010/09/wildcats-statement-regarding-hmrc/=#800000official response[/url reads to me as the most absurd disingenuous comment I have read for a long time. And this seems to be over a NEW unpaid tax issue. They are taking the Wakey fans for fools; the latter deserve better.

I wouldn't be so hard on them. The first rule of business is that no one pays their bills on time. The problem nowadays is that is a company goes under HMRC are no longer first o be reimbursed. They've lost their approved creditor status and as a result have to join in with everyone else in agreeing a pence in the pound pay off. As a result they now apply for winding up orders straight away especially if that business is a sports club with an off season.



Like I said it'll be over once they've met and sorted out a new payment scheme.



The club aren't taking anyone for tools they are merely trying to compete in a difficult environment and the RFL are making it harder. Their criteria for the promotion of Championship clubs shows this half the Super league don't meet it.

This is potentially a major issue that the parliamentary all-party rugby league committee need to jump on.



HMRC are mardy because of the irresponsibility of quite a large number of football clubs - particularly, I understand, Leeds United, who folded and reformed, owing the government.



It needs to made clear that ours are not football clubs, and whilst we are far from financially impeccable, we are not to be confused with the delusional idiots that run a lot of football clubs and do not deserve their treatment.

Its not "Approved Creditor" - no such thing - I think you meant the loss of "Crown Preference". And speak for yourself about paying Bills on time - I have always found that paying suppliers pretty well on time gets you a better service when you need help, as well as being both more efficient and morally rather better, but no matter. It is NOT a "first rule of business", and plenty of people pay their bills on time. Sadly, too many have the same attitude as you, and that sort of attitude drives small operations out of business. What IS one of the first rules of responsible business is that you pay over your PAYE and VAT within reason when due (or agree "time-to-pay" up-front) since there are significant consequences if you do not.



You are not reading what they said anyway. Its apparently nothing to do with the payment scheme for the existing debt. Its something new. Another lot of unpaid tax, seemingly. I could speculate what it relates to - maybe image rights - but I really have no idea. But you must be incredibly naïve if you think HMRC apply for a winding up order just because they and the club have not yet "met and sorted out a new payment scheme". Have you ever dealt with HMRC in this context? They will take this action when taxes are due and an amount determined, and the creditor has consistently failed to pay. And anyway, the "debts" that sports clubs end up owing to HMRC are generally a rather special sort of debt - they are invariably PAYE and NICS deducted from employees not paid over to HMRC, employers' NICs never paid, and VAT collected on net income payable to HMRC. With the exception of the employers' NICs, these are monies collected by the club on behalf of HMRC WHICH WERE NEVER THEIR OWN. I have always maintained that to use such monies to finance your business to any significant extent is tantamount to theft, since you are using someone else's money. How would you feel if your employer deducted tax and NI from your wages, and then failed to pay that over to HMRC?



HMRC is fed up with sports clubs going bust leaving the owner/s and HMRC as the major creditors (like what happened with London Broncos) and have this strange idea that they should actually have a responsibility to protect the taxpayer. Because that is on whom the burden for unpaid taxes elsewhere ultimately falls.



"Hard on them"? If a club enters into any form of insolvency which results in taxes collected FROM OTHERS being written off, and that club continues in another form, that club has gained a big financial advantage over its rivals who have presumably tried to meet their financial obligations. That is not fair. Is it? And don't forget Wakefield have already been there done that, around 2004 IIRC.

Glad of Adey's reply here as I was about to clarify some of those matters myself.



The other point which has been made about HMRC being "really quick to serve winding-up petitions" is also a load of garbage. HMRC offer the most amount of lenience out of any of the creditors of an entity.



How many other creditors would stand by and give 120 days plus credit terms whilst others are broadly being paid on time (say, 30-60 days which is about average)? The fact is that there is no "Bank of HMRC" and there damn well shouldn't be.



Without knowing the exact ins and outs for Wakeys current situation it's difficult to make any solid comments here, but you can bet that the basis for the payment schedule agreed was that, at that time, it was confirmed that ongoing taxes would be paid on time. They haven't been by the look of it, albeit from the club statement there appears to be some arguments over the quantum of the liability.



At the end of the day, why should a sports club be treat any different to a retailer, manufacturer or other business if they don't meet their obligations to HMRC?



I do, however, hope that Wakey can work through this outside of a formal insolvency process and bring its tax payments up to date.

And that is pretty spot on - totally agree, including especially the last point.

Do RL clubs have the same rules regarding insolvency that football clubs have? The rule where football debts get paid first and in full? Or is that just something which was agreed for football clubs many years ago and is now crying out for reform? Testimonials should be looked at as well. Some sort of cap where if you have earned less than - say £2m in your sporting career (probably everyone except footballers) then it remains tax free, otherwise tax it.

No, not everyone, just teams with inadequate stadiums. Were meant to be an elite European competition, not Billy's Hotdogs Regional Division 3. Teams have been ploughing money into their first team squads for years and spending diddly squat on their facilities, only when the RFL started making stadiums part of licensing criteria have teams actually started making a concerted effort to improve their facilities. Do you really think Saints and Salford would be this far along with their new stadiums if the RFL had said 'forget about the stadiums, your alight for another 10 years'? If Wakey or Cas can't build new stadia then there are teams in the Championship with better facilities and potentially equal fan bases that can take their place. Teams who can spend their income on their playing squads AND have the 21st century stadium's too.

I completely agree that clubs have an obligation to the tax man and to manage their finances the same as any business. However...



Part of the problem is the perceived wealth in sport. If a business goes under and lays off a few hundred people you hear about how bad this is and how it effects the community. If a football or RL club goes/were to go under the number of jobs lost may not be as large but the impact on the local community could be massive because of the role they play, not only on what they offer on the field but also what they give back to their communities. I can't help but feel sorry for the supporters of clubs who have gone under through no fault of the fans. This isn't like woolies closing down or other businesses closing where you always have the option to go elsewhere... this is about heart and passion, and you can't simply move to another club if yours ceases to exist. Could you ever imagine a Cas fan deciding to support Wakie or Leeds?



What do you do? Just stop watching RL? You have to wonder whether something needs to be done at government level to look at the way sporting clubs are run that would ensure they are forced to be responsible. Naive? Possibly. But I don't want to be a cynic all my life.



I've said in a previous thread that the pressure to have stadiums that, in many cases are much more than the clubs actually need, is going to lead to problems. The fact is that we're recovering from a worldwide slump and unless you have big bucks from the sale of an old ground or a big money investor you're going to struggle to finance it. Whether we like it or not, the support for most SL teams is no more than a lower league football club and they're been forced to spend money they don't have due to snobbery within the RFL. That isn't to say that money shouldn't be invested into improving the grounds, but it has to be within reason.